Arlene at Dancing in Midlife Tune has asked a question of me in the form of a meme. The meme is simply, "To cane or not to cane". Below is a comment Arlene left pointing out the tag.
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I am wondering how this tag is received out there in the US. In most Asian countries generally believest that to cane is part of discipline. I wonder what’s your side on this. pls drop me a line at my blog if you have done this. Your co authors may do the same tag if they are interested.
While Mike is likely a better person to answer this question, due to his first hand knowledge of parenting and being parented in different cultures, I can certainly share a bit of how we view discipline in our household.
When I imagine caning it doesn’t bring very fond images to mind. In the United States the term we use for the same type of discipline is usually "spanking". Even spanking doesn’t bring to mind fond images as this is not the casual swat on the backside to get attention, but rather it is the over the knee repeated swatting to not only get your attention but also send a very clear message. For some of my more thick headed brethren the message may not be so clear.
In my experience the spanking has been executed using a bare hand, a paddle, or a switch (the end of a willow branch). When I was in elementary school the threat of being sent to the principal for a spanking was a very real one. I can remember the paddle being pulled from behind the receptionist’s desk and being handed to the principal. It still sends shivers down my spine.
Spanking in schools is no longer allowed. Thankfully.
In our home we don’t do the spanking discipline, nor do we plan to. This doesn’t mean we don’t throw in an occasional backside swat. We do; however, we swat only as the exception and never as the rule. Our preferred method of discipline right now is time-out coupled with standing in the corner. Most of the time this works just fine.
We have found that when placing the kid in time-out doesn’t do the trick allowing Mom or Dad to take a time-out usually will.
If any of you care to chime in on this topic please drop in a comment to let us know.
- I highly recommend you read Arlene’s post as well as the fellow blogger that tagged her and so on. It is interesting to read other cultural perspectives and experiences.
Mike just sent me an email which I am going to append to this posting. His perspective is a good one and warrants lengthening this post beyond the point of many attention spans; however, it is worth the read. – 02/16/08 11:30 EST
I believe that corporal punishment has its place, however, it is used all too frequently by some, and for the wrong reasons. Some people use it as a general form of punishment, rather than for extreme circumstances.
As Chuck alluded to, I was raised in a different culture and country. I’ve had my fair share(and then some) of corporal punishment. I probably deserved most of it. Sometimes the punishment did not fit the "crime", but it was an efficient way for the Headmaster, or Principal, to ensure your good behavior for an extended period of time. I have had many a yardstick shattered on my posterior, but there are other forms of punishment that look benign, but are actually more painful than what Arlene improperly calls caning. I don’t agree with the word "Caning" because this is a form of prison punishment that draws blood and can break bones. Spanking is a more appropriate term, and I will stick to my principles and say that there are the few times in a child’s life that it needs to be administered.
Once in Elementary School I remember being sent to the Principal’s office for some offense (probably talking too much, or some prank I pulled on an unsuspecting student or teacher). I was made to stand by her desk, arms extended 90 degrees in front of me with my palms facing up. Two large books(large dictionaries or bibles) were placed upon the palms my outstretched arms. I was also made to bend my knees until I was in a squatting position. This pose was held for however long the punisher felt was adequate in comparison to the offense. I think I did it for an hour. My muscles ached and burned when I was done, but what hurt more was the humiliation. I was made to do this by a large window for all the school to see. I was not the only one that had to endure these punishments. These were doled out on a sometimes daily basis to different rule-breakers throughout the school. I also remember being made to kneel on course salt with bare knees. The discomfort would give way to searing pain as you shifted your weight from one knee to the other. As you moved the rough salt would slowly cut through your skin and ….well…..you know what salt does to open wounds. We would have to endure this for 30 minutes to an hour. My, how times have changed. You could be labeled a child abuser in this day and age. All this was done at school. We got spankings with a house slipper or a belt at home. When my friends, who were raised in the U.S., used to tell me about getting "paddled", and how much it hurt, I just chuckled and shook my head. If they only knew what other kids had endured in other parts of the world.
Children are individuals, and each has their own unique tolerance to pain, humiliation, punishment or words. With some kids, a simple "look" from a parent will cause them to behave, while others need a heavy handed approach, and yet others require varying degrees of "in-between". I know many, "MANY", children who NEED corporal punishment but barely get a sideways glance from their parents. These are the kids who will grow up thinking they are entitled to everything (I know a few of these grownups myself, and have confirmed their lack of spankings as a child). There is a difference between beating and spanking, and people use these two terms interchangeably. There is a big difference, and If you don’t know the difference either learn proper English, or check yourself into an institution to spare your kids’ lives.
And, Oh by the way, I turned out fine. – Mike
hi chuck, thanks for answering my wondering mind. thanks too for using pictures that shows how caning or spanking is long ago. seeing the pics sends shiver to my spine.
my mom has never used wooden stick on me and my siblings. she used coconut leaf bt yet it still hurts. i’ve spanked my daughter once when she was small using a plastic hanger and that never happened again because I knew it was not good. bt angry emotions controlled me so that happens.
and that paddle pic? i think that is used in fraternities here in the philippines.
arlene’s last blog post..Survey: Dreams to Life
The mom or dad timeout is very key in our household. Sometimes it is my mood that is the problem, not the child’s behavior.
Blog Hopping–HP
HP’s last blog post..Technology or Why the OLPC laptop won’t work for my children
@HP – Yep, we feel the same way. Occasionally I’ll get into trouble on purpose just to get a timeout.
No spanking here. Just time outs. If that doesn’t work, we start taking away stuff. Toys, privileges, TV time, computer time.. etc. I have not yet had to hook one of his Bionicles up to a car battery, but when the day comes when I have to resort to that, I’ll film it.
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The word caning gives me the shivers, even spanking doesn’t do me any favours.
I personally don’t see any benefits of taking a child aside to ‘beat’ them. The thought of using ANY sort of implement genuinely makes me sad.
That said, I do see a difference in a timed slap on the bum, or a slap on the wrist, more as guidance while the struggle with language than anything. As soon as they can communicate there should be no need.
This is a totally green opinion of course
Xbox4NappyRash’s last blog post..The Part-Time Transvestite
@XBox – You sir, have hit the nail on the head. “As soon as they can communicate”, is just about as right as it can get, and before they can communicate just isn’t fair.
@BuzzeeDad – Now that is would be a video worth watching!
And some budding entrepreneur has taken the parental time out to a whole new level…
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/214/498311506_bf8a8127f7.jpg
You’ve got to love the entrepreneurial spirit. I’m thinking a nice flask would work well for the Dad.
I have a question.
How many people who proclaim that spanking is barbaric – and by spanking I’m referring to a swat to the bottom to send a very clear and concise message… not one of repeated ‘beating’ which is very different – how many of these people believe that we as a nation, have a very severe disrespect problem and a major problem with bullying in our schools? And please, I don’t wish this to be an attack, I am very interested to learn.
I too was in school and I too, was bullied as a child and do not deny that it took place. However… there weren’t children hanging themselves and taking guns to school and killing other students and staff because they were bullied unrelentingly.
What are your thoughts?
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@TheMrs,
I KNOW we have a very severe disrespect problem in this nation. I see it almost daily.
Permissiveness by parents wanting to strengthen their child’s esteem can backfire drastically when they allow disruptive behavior to rule. I’ve seen a kid at church kicking the pews and screaming because Mom took away his portable video game. Mom sat and looked straight ahead like nothing was happening and expected the rest of us to ignore the little monster. What lesson did the kid learn? “I can do anything I want, when I want, where I want and the only consequence I might endure is a nasty look. Kicking and screaming is a great leverage/bartering tool against
authoritymy parents.”I do believe there is a problem with disrespect in this nation. I also know bullying is an issue and I believe that bullying is born of the disrespect. All of this begins at home. I’m not sure if some parents are just lazy, or afraid to discipline their children. Likely both I imagine. It is all very sad and disappointing when it isn’t just pissing you off.
I went to a very scary Catholic school were spanking with a paddle was not only permitted but threatened on a daily basis. It sucked!!
–TooMuchVino
I have spanked three of our 4 boys (the youngest is only 2). I can’t remember the last time I did though. While I won’t say I’ll never spank again . . . I DO think there are methods just as effective if one makes the effort to be a little creative. Such as time outs, corner time, or writing apologies.
Honeybell’s last blog post..Because Nancy Grace Gets On My Damn Nerves
I enjoyed both the post and all the comments. I was “one of those people” who said I would never spank my children, before I became a parent. Although I don’t spank on a regular basis, I have spanked both my kids before, spanked, not beaten. I think there is a definite difference between the two. I have found that I am more inclined to spank when I am frustrated or angry or tired and I need to walk away in those instances. I have been known to tell my children that the best thing they can do is walk away from me, or not follow me if I walk away. I am definitely not a perfect parent, but I do my best. I do agree with the commentors about the lack of respect in our society. That is one of my pet peeves and my children are very respectful and behave well in public. I have seen those children who have “free thinking parents” and usually they are very disrespectful and don’t have much self control. The direction our society is going in is very frightening to me…I feel for my children.
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Alison,
Bravo to you for recognizing that you are not a perfect parent; None of us are! Bravo too for knowing the difference between beating and spanking.
Having well behaved children means you spend the time to correct their mistakes and show them right from wrong.
Thanks for chiming in on this touchy subject.
Mike’s last blog post..Spare the rod?
Here is my Spare the Rod post.
BalancingHops’s last blog post..Almost Mom of the Year
“Caning” sounds barbaric!
As for backside swats, we’ve tried them…they don’t work. Neither do timeouts. The only trick we had left was to take away their favorite toys, computer time, TV…whatever was their latest obsession. They have to earn it back. Works like a charm every time.
Momo Fali’s last blog post..Darn That Backwards Logic
Spanking I do not do.. I use what I have read in majority of the commenters which is time outs or taking away his toys (baby is still to young to be in trouble..LOL) It is rough.. I remember getting smacked with the wood attic stick when I was growing up.. put the fear of god in me.. I am hoping my Mommy evil eye will do the trick soon enough!!
Kim’s last blog post..Total Lunar Eclipse Late Wednesday
I believe kids should receive discipline in many ways, but creative is always better than cop out. Let me explain, youngsters…have them run around the house like 12 times (outside) or something if they lie or don’t listen etc. If time outs aren’t working, institute push ups, jumping jacks, etc. Older kids, memorization, poetry, the bible, Joeprah.com, etc. We do tap their backsides if they run towards traffic or hurt each other intentionally, and the hand swat is helpful as well in these situations. Peace!!
No spanking here, either. Seems counter intuitive to me. I agree with XBox that “the thought of using ANY kind of implement genuinely makes me sad.”
Permissiveness, however, is also completely unacceptable. As the kids are getting older, it’s fairly apparent (in the schools) who’s been taught limits and who has none. Heck, just catch an episode of one of those Nanny 911 types of shows and you’ll see the terrible consequences of permissiveness. Everybody ends up miserable.
The method here worked beautifully for us:
http://www.parentmagic.com/
It’s basically a modified time out system.
But, I agree whole heartedly with Chuck — most of the time, we’re the ones who need the time out (and take it).
And I loved the way Chuck & XBox said, ” ‘As soon as they can communicate’ is just about as right as it can get, and before they can communicate just isn’t fair.”
Removing privileges is effective, too.
Great post and discussion!
Soapbox Mom’s last blog post..What’s for Dinner? These Teeny Burger Bites are a Hit!
I am a reluctant spanker. I actually got tagged for the world’s most insane meme once about spanking, and wrote an entire post on it, which I will link you to and you can totally ignore if you’d like.
http://www.whiskeyinmysippycup.com/2007/12/14/who-comes-up-with-these-things-anyway/
PS: I am tired of blog-hopping you, and think it is time to commence with stalking you up right.
Mr Lady’s last blog post..Better than a fortune teller
Very interesting thoughts…
He are some of the things that crossed my mind while reading everyone’s post. I think caning and spanking are different yet similar – depending on how you look at it. While differences in vanity seems to separate the two, they are very similar in that they inflict pain as a form of corrective punishment.
However, consider this scenario:
Let’s say that my kid lied to me. Now, we all know that lying can get out of control and eventually get my kid in to much bigger trouble later on in life.
Now, do I take his toys away? I don’t know how many times I’ve heard him say, “I didn’t like that thing anyways”. He may act heart-broken, but do we really know? Honestly, I don’t think he’s been too heart broken most of the time. I don’t think you would believe it if I told you how many things I’ve actually taken away and how much time he actually spends being grounded. It’s bad enough that we don’t have cable and there’s only so much you can do.
Do I mentor or try to counsel him? This takes time and would be the route that I would want to take all the time. However, this can be much too complicated to get right and I don’t think I can afford to take any chances when considering the degree of certain crimes.
Do I do other things: time-outs, etc? I’ve watched some of the “Nanny”. That method takes time. In a perfect world, we all should have that much time.
Think also in retrospect to the school system and society. Do we really want to take our chances when it comes down to the safety of our kids?
Would you agree that spanking is a quickest and simplest form of punishment and gets results? What if a bigger kid comes in to the school system and slams your kid face first in to the wall? You can’t control the fact that the other kids have bad parents. Expulsion seems to be the answer we have now, but you’re not doing the kid any favors and they just become menaces to society.
Some things to think about on caning: Have you ever lived in a society or been to a country that lacks sufficient resources? I would imagine that things could get pretty ugly. Of course, we’ve never really felt that in our society – maybe in some parts. What other answer would you have to restore order besides the use of fear (caning)?
My conclusion: You can’t completely rule out the rod, and the rod should be fitting to the household.
@TheOfficer -
Thanks for your contribution to this conversation. You make some excellent points. Good food for thought.
I raised my children planning to spank them when needed, but they just never seemed to need them. Maybe I was blessed with great children? I don’t think that was it, even though they were great kids. Now they are grown with children of their own. We always used charts in our home. The charts would list chores for each child, and if there was a behavior problem, there was a chart for that too. The kids were always rewarded for doing chores and good behavior, and punished for poor behavior. The rewards and punishments were usually something that mattered to them, not usually monetary. They recieved or had taken away, depending on the case, tv time, play time, phone time. My children had to work for everthing they got, excluding gifts. When they were old enough, they bought their own first cars. They were happy children, and now happy, responsible adults. The key, I think, is to be consistent with your rewards and your punishments.
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